Strangest Jobs with Chris Surek and Alex Thiersch

October 6, 2021

In this episode, Michael and Brad are joined by a lawyer and a plastic surgeon who also happen to be successful entrepreneurs. Tune in as we “Zoom In” with guests Alex Thiersch, founder of American Med Spa Association, and Dr. Chris Surek, founder of Academy for Injection Anatomy, and learn about their partnership and the importance of training and education in the medical field. 

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Below is the episode’s transcript which has been edited for readability. If you have any questions or would like to learn more, email us at info@byrdadatto.com.

Transcript

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues, simplified through real client stories and real world experiences. Creating simplicity in three, two, one.

Brad: Welcome to the opening episode of season six on the Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto with my cohost, Michael Byrd.

Michael: As a business and healthcare law firm, Brad details matter. This season’s theme is zoom in. Once we know our big picture vision or strategy, we have to roll up our sleeves to get the work done. With each episode this season we’ll have our typical stories and make sure we talk about the specific actions to focus on for 2022.

Brad: Yeah Michael, I’m really excited for today’s episode for two reasons. First, we officially launched the podcast on the video realm. So they can see our gorgeous radio faces and listen to us on YouTube and these other video platforms that I know nothing about. But secondly, we have two [00:01:00] guests joining us to launch the season.

Michael: I thought you were going to do hair and makeup.

Brad: Uh, I did.

Michael: Oh, okay.

Brad: So defeated.

Michael: Oh, well it’s going to be a good one. I was going to do a deep dive, Brad on my research for this episode today.

Brad: Oh, good. So you’re using Google again?

Michael: Pretty much. Do you know Brad, that there is a list of the 10 strangest jobs in the world?

Brad: I didn’t know that, but I assume that you’re going to tell me anyway.

Michael: Yeah. Number 10, professional sleeper.

Brad: You know my daughter would be really good at that job.

Michael: Yeah, I’ve got two teenagers. Number nine, a drying paint watcher. Number eight, a full-time Netflix viewer.

Brad: A lot of people, I think during the middle of the pandemic, were actually probably hired by Netflix to do that.

Michael: Yeah. Number seven, a train pusher. Let me explain what that is. A train pusher in Japan, you have workers that are hired to [00:02:00] help cram as many people onto the train as possible by pushing them from the outside until the train closes.

Brad: That sounds really safe. What a great job.

Michael: There are professional mourners in Southeast Asia. It is apparently a tradition that allowed funerals to assist the Dead. They traveled to the afterlife. So professional mourners are hired to cry and weep loudly throughout the service.

Brad: It feels like my first 20 years as a Saints fan.

Michael: Yes. Number five, snake milkers. They collect venom of poisonous snakes. Number four, dog food taster.

Brad: You know, I think there are people in college who either did that on a dare or as a pledge, or they just were there so that’s what they did.

Michael: We don’t want to hear about your college days again.

Brad: Sorry.

Michael: Number three, an odor judge. They test the effectiveness of new products by having to smell breath, feet and underarms.

Brad: Yeah, dad joke. That’s a stinky.

Michael: Oh Brad, start that [00:03:00] season out like that. There’s marmite tasters. Number two, their job is to test for correct texture, flavor and consistency. The guy who has had this job has had it for 30 years and tasted around 3000 jars. Number one, scuba diving pizza delivery man. Apparently there’s an underwater hotel in Florida and there’s a person who delivers pizza in a watertight case.

Brad: That sounds like a hotel Michael, that we should consider for the next ByrdAdatto University retreat, but I’m more thankful that none of the positions you listed are actually at ByrdAdatto.

Michael: True, though I’m betting that when you were a child dreaming about future Brad, you did not picture yourself doing a podcast and talking about the strangest jobs.

Brad: Yeah, I’d say you’re correct on that one. Normally when we talk about something in the beginning, we try to connect it to today’s story and we have a lawyer and we have a plastic surgeon [00:04:00] and I don’t see the connection to the strangest jobs in the world and their profession.

Michael: What if I told you that the lawyer joining us today founded a trade association for the medical spa industry and that he regularly lectures on the legalities of procedures like vampire facials and vaginal rejuvenation.

Brad: You know, I’m not judging because we have actually given the same lectures, but it’s pretty strange when you really take a step back and think about it. But definitely not something that he dreamed about as a young boy, because we all know he wanted to be Michael Jordan. So that’s definitely not what he was thinking about.

Michael: And our plastic surgeon founded a business where cadaver heads are the main piece of inventory.

Brad: Yeah. I think that’s definitely every kid’s childhood dream, or most people’s zombie apocalypse nightmare. I’m not sure.

Michael: One of the two. Here’s the icing on the top. These two found each other like chocolate and peanut butter found each other for Reese’s peanut butter cups.

 Brad: All right, you’ve totally confused me. [00:05:00] Hopefully the audience is still with us.

Michael: Okay. Well, let me introduce them. We have to start with the lawyer first, it’s probably like an assumed thing, obviously. So our law partner, Alex Thiersch is on again. Alex is the founder of the American Med Spa Association. He’s the managing partner of ByrdAdatto’s Chicago office. He went to undergrad at the University of Iowa, DePaul University College of Law for law school. He has his own podcast called the Medical Spa Insider. He is married to Tony and he is passionate about dogs. And Michael Jordan that he is, and then that’s for less. We have Chris Surek joining us. Chris is from Kansas City, went to Kansas City University undergrad, University of Kansas Medical Center. He did an aesthetic surgery fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic. He’s a board certified plastic surgeon. He’s in private practice with Surek Plastic Surgery [00:06:00] and he founded the Academy For Injection Anatomy, AIA, which would probably explain the AIA knuckle tattoo. The common ground that these two have when they partnered together is training and education, particularly for safe and compliant medical spa treatments, gentlemen welcome.

Alex: I just wanted to get into cadavers. Training was the least of the things I wanted to do. Cadavers all day long!

Chris: Thanks for having us guys.

Brad: Well, we’re glad to have you and for our audience full disclosure, we are a part of the AmSpa family. And now of course the AIA family. I think it’s time Michael, for us to pick on the lawyer first. So Alex, tell us about AmSpa. What does it do?

Alex: AmSpa is a trade group or a society of med spas, [00:07:00] we are close to 4,000 strong in the United States. We provide mostly compliance resources, but also business and other types of tools and resources for our medical spas. And mainly we provide them with information on who can do what in their particular state, supervisory rules, ownership, rules, all that kind of stuff. We also do have a big trade show that we do in end of January, Medical Spa Show, as well as a bunch of other educational events that we put on throughout the year.

Michael: Cool. So why did you start AmSpa?

Alex: Mainly because it was needed, there was nowhere anybody could go at the time to figure out what the hell you could do in your particular state. I’m not even sure ByrdAdatto knew at this point. There was an area in the marketplace that needed help. And more importantly, I could see how big the med spa industry was getting and that there were folks who were confused and needed guidance and the help. [00:08:00] That is just kind of how it all started. I was a lawyer obviously by trade and my first client was a med spa owner and I learned about the industry and this was kind of blown away by what people were building, but I was curious and a little troubled by the lack of resources because I could tell a lot of people were doing things incorrectly without even knowing it. And so that was the Genesis of it. I started with the Illinois Medical Spa Association and that morphed quickly into AmSpa. And you know, one of these not too long after that, I met two handsome lawyers in Vegas and the rest is history.

Brad: So I just want to put a rumor to bed then Alex, that rumor that you tried out for the Bulls and they just wouldn’t pay you enough. It’s not the reason why you started AmSpa.

Alex: That rumor is incorrect. I didn’t try out. They asked me to try out, but I couldn’t work for that organization after the way they treated [00:09:00] Scott and Michael.

Brad: Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I got that one out of the way. Chris, tell us about AIA. And is it really true that there are cadaver heads involved in this AIA?

Chris: Absolutely. Well, yes, there are cadavers. So AIA, Academy For Injection Anatomy. Think of it like a Kaplan course for injectors. You think about when your kids are going through high school and I think SATs, or even in med school or college studying for the MCAT. I realized I was traveling a lot for industry all over the country. I was fortunate enough to co-author a book on injectables while I was still in residency and I’ve been studying anatomy for a little over a decade, particularly anatomy for the injector. So I was already speaking and teaching. I would do cadaver course at national meetings to try and teach anatomy, but when I started traveling for industry and I got out there, I would walk into some pretty famous practices and [00:10:00] well-known injectors, I was surprised. Number one, by the lack of anatomy knowledge and number two, the thirst for anatomy knowledge. I quickly realized when you think about anything, there are foundational principles. So when it comes to injections, particularly filler injections, you have to understand your anatomical plane and the product you’re using. You have to marry the two of those to create positive outcomes for your patients. And just like Alex said, the resources weren’t quite there and people were thirsty for the knowledge. And a lot of them have not done surgical training, a lot of them have not had the opportunity to dissect the face. I think there’s one thing about watching someone do something, but if you actually do it yourself with your own hands and you can see it, that’s a memory that people will never forget. So here in Kansas City, I decided to open up this teaching academy. Mainly because I wanted to stay home a little bit more, be with my family, grow my practice, but I figured if I build it, maybe people will come. And they did. They started coming a lot and we started selling out. Before COVID we were sold out for seven months straight before the [00:11:00] pandemic hit. We had a very long wait list, which was an honor. And I think it was a testament to our passion for the industry. But the course, just to understand the baseline of it, it does utilize a cadaver head. The cadaver heads are curated by company. They’re treated very respectfully. We have to write a grant to utilize them and we take it very seriously. But what I did is I created a method of dissection that allows any level, whether you’re a surgeon or a first time injector to inject commonplaces and then dissect down to visualize how all the arteries, nerves, ligaments, lymphatics, all interrelate. And the whole idea is to share the message of anatomy and safety and injectables. We’ve built the course of growing it and it’s been really fun to watch and I’m honored to see where it’s come.

Michael: That’s really cool. And I’m curious, listening to you after all the education and you have this idea that comes to you on how to improve education. You had to kind of take a jump out there from an entrepreneurial perspective to start a business. Had you started a [00:12:00] business before and what was that like?

Chris: No, it’s a great question. I’d never started a business, but I had this burning sensation in my gut saying, you know, you should build this. I remember sitting down with my wife actually the night that I was planning this out and I spent a lot of time ahead of time on the cadaver lab, trying to make sure I had a dissection that would work. I had to make sure all the intellectual property, the illustrations, and set up, I had negotiated with the hotels and done all stuff I’d never done before. No event planning, no business planning, none of that. But I knew I loved it and I figured, listen, if you love it enough and you’re passionate about it, you know, start small and grow it. And so it was an entrepreneurial thing for me. I have a full-time practice. I have two young kids, but again, I just, my gut told me that the industry needed this. And so I just kept pushing forward and we figured it out.

Brad: So going to back to Michael’s Reese’s cup moment. We have the chocolate and then I’m not sure who that [00:13:00] is and the peanut butter. And somewhere in 2020 AmSpa and AIA decided to come together and partner together. What made it known besides being apparently a Reese’s peanut butter cup, what made you such a good fit and for you guys to come together and maybe Chris, I’ll start with you.

Chris: Yeah, actually, I remember the first time I hopped on a call with Alex and Cathy. I had some interest from other people in industry. I had some interest in the private equity sector. I had grown to the point where I knew I needed help either I hired more staff and built it on my own, I hired a consulting company potentially as an option, but in reality, I knew that I wanted to grow it, but I needed a good partner. You know, we worked, we had such a long wait list we had such a backlog, we had so much requests to go out and teach people. And you know, there’s up to 30,000 injectors in the US and by the time Alex got to me, I’d only taught like 250, and I wanted to share the message. But I was [00:14:00] really, really concerned about maintaining the sanctity and the authenticity and the intimacy of the course. And so the people I talked to, I wasn’t quite getting that vibe. And then when I sat down with Alex and Cathy, I could tell that they appreciated the passion behind the course, the way I grew was much of the way Alex grew. Right. You have an idea, you grow it, you just keep pushing and you maintain the right principles, the right passion about it. And so then I thought to myself, well, this was perfect because here’s an organization, a proven organization that gets started grassroots and I liked the people. They understand compliance, legal, business, all the stuff that I don’t cover in my course, but I would love to have as resources and also, an events team and a marketing team to grow AIA while still maintaining the message. You know, it made perfect sense to me. And again, I’m a person that goes by gut and instinct and my instinct right away was that AmSpa would be a great partner to grow the course.

Michael: Awesome. Well, I’d love to hear Alex kind of your perspective, wearing the AmSpa [00:15:00] hat, as y’all decided to partner with AIA.

Alex: Yeah, it really was a perfect fit, right from the get-go. I had heard a lot about Chris and his course, just through reputation. I talked to a lot of folks who had attended to it. A lot of the industry was very excited about what he was doing. When I talked to folks about trainers and how I as well wanted to get into clinical training at some point, he was the one that was really the first and last on the list so I was very lucky. Through Catherine Christensen, my CEO, there’s a lot of credit because she first talked to Chris and was able to get us in touch. And we saw right away that there was both synergies of what we do as businesses, but also in how we approach business and how we approach the industry. I think that’s the most important thing [00:16:00] to have a good partner, it’s not just that the terms have to match up. Sure. But you also have to be kind of rowing in the same direction to have that same passion for something. And we’ve always, AmSpa has primarily been up to this point. When I got involved with Chris, we were solely compliance, legal and business. There was no formal clinical training. We did a little bit at MSS and we did some outsource stuff, but it really was our goal to get into that because we didn’t know from the beginning, there’s so many people who need help. They need help in not only determining what the laws are, but they need a lot of help doing things safely and learning how to do things properly. And so it was perfect. And I have to tell you, and this was all done over COVID. Chris and I hadn’t had any formal introduction, we didn’t even meet each other until after our deal was done, we just had zoom calls. But frankly, I would have done it anyway, because just going off reputation, [00:17:00] I knew that he was onto something special and that he was going to grow this thing to be big. And I, and I wanted to be a part of it.

Brad: And that makes sense. First off I love both of y’all. You can tell how passionate you are about the training side and the education side, because it really does come through as you guys were describing it to us. And that leads me perfectly back to you, Chris. Talk about why the training you provided is so important to the industry.

Chris: It’s critical. You know, you’ll hear many people say it’s the wild, wild west out there when it comes to injections and aesthetic procedures. And it’s true. I mean, as Alex mentioned, there are some legal situations involved, but see, like in plastic surgery, we go through a full residency. We take a test every year to get us ready for a big written board exam. Then we have to submit all our cases and sit in front of this board of examiners where it’s very stressful to get credential. So it’s this huge process but yet here we have these medical procedures being provided and a lot of times, a lot of these [00:18:00] people, they just start injecting and then their training can vary so much based upon who their medical directors are, what access they have, where they came from. I think it’s really critical, not only for the injectors and the industry, but also for these people to get proper training and safety in anatomy. It’s paramount. And for me, if I was an injector, I want to make sure I was coming in the industry, I’d want to make sure that I was as equipped as I possibly could be in anatomy technique and the science of the products I’m using before I approach it with my patients, because I would want that as a patient from my provider. And so that was another driving force for me was, hey, you know, let’s go ahead and build and grow this. And so I thought it was a really nice marriage with AmSpa to do it. I think the industry response has been very good and I think our attendees and our alumni have really taken that message and spread the word. And it’s my hope that we’re just setting an example for others to continue to put an emphasis on training because it’s critical. It’s critical for us, it’s critical [00:19:00] for our colleagues and most importantly, it’s critical for all of our patients who are receiving treatments.

Brad: Yeah. I had one follow-up question to something you had said, Chris. And what you had talked about earlier that you have people come in there from anywhere from a plastic surgeon to an injector of some sort, what was the most shocking thing that you noticed when you were teaching the course for the first couple of times, was there a pattern that kind of demonstrated itself at all?

Chris: Well, I think the nice thing is, I think the people that come to our course, so we have a saying that the fear of injections is the fear of anatomy, and I think people who come to our course had a healthy fear of the anatomy, but even some of the most seasoned injectors I’ve had, physicians and different realms, it was the aha when they got to see certain things. For example, with tear trough injections, they got to see how close the vessels are to their injection. And that’s really humbling for them considering that all these vessels interconnect with the orbit, for example, when people got involved with temporal injections, a very common thing. I saw a lot of people didn’t understand that [00:20:00] anatomy and they’d learned certain safety parameters, but also dangerous zones they hadn’t seen before. And it was a real ah ha moment. The other area where you see a lot of stuff on social media is what’s called liquid rhinoplasty or injections of the nose with filler. And I think sometimes the way it’s presented on social media platforms and the people is that it’s a low risk procedure. But as a matter of fact, it can be done, it can be performed effectively and has been done safely, but also if it’s not done properly or if there’s an injection that ends up disrupting the vessels in the nose, it can create a lot of problems, including vision loss. It was really good for those objectors to cut down on the nose and see where the anatomy is for those who do inject. So they could actually have a really good sense of the right plane to be in. I think it’s really important that they have those aha moments. That’s what I really see. I love the ah ha moments, the look on their face where we kind of break them down, we show them what can go wrong, and then we build them up to show them what they can do to prevent those problems. And it’s a really fun growth process by the time they leave the course, I feel like we would equip them [00:21:00] with a better skill set than what they came in with.

Brad: And I’ll give you one more shameless plug. I had the pleasure of meeting a lot of people in the last boot camp and at MSS who had attended your course. And even the ones who were physicians told me they learned a ton from it. And they even said that they knew they learned new techniques even about how to inject better. So hats off to you for starting the course. Alex, hats off to you for finding the peanut butter or chocolate, I’m still not sure which ones which, and combining the two.

Alex: And just to piggyback on what you said, Brad, everyone and this is 100% of the people that I’ve talked to up into the course, and I’ve just been blown away. I’ve seen it. It really is something that is a sight to behold. You learn so much, even as a lawyer, a lay person, after I got over the initial nausea and after I woke up from passing out, seeing some of the injections, [00:22:00] I found myself kind of engaged in learning and what was going on. And what I always tell people in this industry is this industry, I’m talking about med spas, noninvasive, aesthetics and injectables in general is growing so fast. And there’s so much potential. There’s so much money to be made, but also people to help and lives to transform. The only thing that’s going to stop us is if people aren’t doing things safely and they start injuring people and there’s new stories and there’s issues that come with that and then resulting legislation in the wrong way. It’s really the biggest danger that we all have. The minute we saw that, we were like this is what we need to get as part of our curriculum because it’s so important that people know. You have to know what you don’t know. And you kind of see it when people come out, there’s a certain healthy respect for what they’re doing once they’re done with the course that maybe they didn’t have at the beginning. And I think every injector [00:23:00] needs that because they’ve got to be a little humbled and a little careful, otherwise, you know, that’s when people get in trouble and we don’t want that. We want this industry to be safe. We want it to be profitable, but most importantly, we want it to be safe. And, and that’s what we are after.

Michael: Yeah, that’s amazing. And it’s a definite one, two punch. You on the one hand, you have to educate on compliance so people can know from a government perspective, what are, what are the regulations on how you can be set up and who can do what, but then to peel the onion back, or maybe I should say cadaver back another layer, you actually have to know how to do it and do it safely because that’s ultimately the goal is patient safety. So that’s really cool. I think, what we’ll do next, Chris is say goodbye to give some space to on the back after commercial to do a little bit more of a legal focused dive. We’re so grateful to have you on. It’s awesome to hear every time you [00:24:00] talk about it. We can feel the passion come out just with the way you talk about it. So thank you and we appreciate you being here.

Chris: Thank you guys for inviting me to be on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you again. Take care.

Brad: All right, well, we’ll catch you later.

Chris: Bye guys.

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Brad: Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto with my cohost Michael Byrd. And as you can see our guests, Alex [00:25:00] Thiersch the BA I can’t say bad-ass the best guy is still with us. So Alex, we’re glad you’re still here with us for the second half.

Alex: Happy to be here.

Michael: All right. I’m going to reset everything we said at the beginning, but this season’s theme is zoom in. Chris Surek is so powerful and talking about provider training. I just love the obvious passion for patient safety. And yeah, there are also legal reasons from a compliance perspective, that provider training is so important. So Brad talk about why it’s so important in every state that the provider actually has the skills to provide the treatments.

Brad: Yeah. And this is a tough one because first you have to understand every single state dictates a different level of education that’s been required to be qualified to actually provide those treatments. So compliance doesn’t always start or stop at someone’s education level. And then you have, [00:26:00] of course the medical and nursing boards that want to provide additional thoughts about what training the person has for them to be able to do certain treatments. And so it gets very confusing. One of my favorite moments on stage with Alex was, as I was trying to explain this, he said, just understand, this just sucks. And it kind of summarizes it all, Alex what we face is there’s no easy answer to say, yeah, everyone can do this and no one can do that. And that’s the statement that you had, that it just sucks sometimes.

Alex: We get this question all the time, how much training do I need? How much is enough? Like when do you reach that point where you say, okay, I am now trained enough to be able to do X procedure. And the truth is that it’s never enough, right? I mean the more training you can get the better. You can never stop learning. And when you’re dealing with an industry like we are with that’s governed by boards [00:27:00] with opinions and things like standard of care that you don’t have written down rules that govern everything that you can refer to. It’s really, you have to just err on the side of caution and so I’m always telling people, just get as much as you possibly can. The more you can get the better and then document everything and you should be okay.

Brad: Yeah, all really good points. Michael, talk about how the states are actually regulated from the formal education requirement.

Michael: Yeah. So you have this educational requirement of training for the procedures we just talked about, but then the states also will say, hey, you need to have this, whatever this is, to be able to do XYZ procedures. And the laws, the states kind of follow two basic approaches. You have some states like California and New York that just tell you who can do what. And in both of those examples, they’re like, hey, if the procedure is the practice of medicine, [00:28:00] it can be done by an RN, a nurse practitioner, a physician assistant, or a physician. And it’s pretty, even though compliance isn’t as clearly showing it has pretty black and white as at least how they regulate it. And then you have other states where they kind of push it onto the doctor. I mean they’re basically saying, hey, this is a medical treatment and the ultimate accountability goes to the medical license that we’re regulating and we hold you to treat patients within a standard of care. And so when you are delegating treatments to other providers, it’s up to you to decide, do they have the adequate education? Do they have the adequate training, and are you within the standard of care? So if we said a doctor delegated injections to Brad because Brad [00:29:00] walked by the cadaver course. My question back would be okay well, what would the medical boards say about that to you? If you were standing before them and trying to answer to the standard of care. So it can seemingly create a lot more flexibility. It kind of does because you don’t have a limited list, but you just have to be careful and be mindful that you’re going to be accountable for who it is that you are allowed to provide treatments.

Brad: Totally agree. All right, Alex, let’s start closing out this episode. Why don’t you give us some final takeaways for our audience for today?

Alex: Yeah, I think it was great to hear Chris, like you guys said, you can just hear how passionate he is about it and I will tell you when you see him on stage doing his thing and talking about anatomy, it’s like he becomes a different person, it’s really amazing. For final thoughts, that’s what it’s all about. Like you have to never ever stop [00:30:00] learning and understanding that the only thing that is going to stop this industry is ourselves. If we don’t get trained, we don’t do things safely. And it’s that there is no substitute for good patient outcomes and there’s nothing that is going to give us more trouble with bad patient outcomes. He’s an incredible instructor and I think we’re just getting started with this too, so I’m excited to see where he goes.

Brad: Michael, I’ll go next. Just to kind of get my final takeaways before we get back to you. We talked about this earlier. It can be very confusing depending on what state you’re are and the defense everyone’s doing it must be okay because you don’t understand everyone does this. And sadly, as we we’ve learned through the years, that’s not always the case. Going back to where we talked about training and education and the very beginning of this, if you are a physician or [00:31:00] either the owner of the med spa or the supervising physician, or in some states, the medical director, you really need to understand how to do the treatment yourself. That’s important and anyone else who’s actually providing that actual treatment that they can do it because they are actually providing that treatment on your license and ultimately the medical board really, ultimately there are other issues that we’ve talked about and the other is the concern about patient safety. And that’s what I love about what AIA and AmSpa’s doing is making sure it’s not just compliance, but actually doing it correctly. So I’m going to stop Michael and let you take the final thoughts today.

Michael: Well, I think that the professional mourners that we talked about at the beginning are people that didn’t follow patient safety and they lost their jobs and so they got so good at the wailing and crying that they went and started getting paid for it.

Brad: Alex, thanks again for joining us.

Alex: Absolutely! Thanks for having me.

Brad: All right. Well, join us next Wednesday when our law partner, Dr. Jeff Siegel joins us to [00:32:00] discuss snake oil of the patient reviews.

Outro: Thanks again for joining us today. And remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe. Make sure to give us a five- star rating and share with your friends. You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com. ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney- client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.

ByrdAdatto founding partner Brad Adatto

Bradford E. Adatto

ByrdAdatto founding partner Michael Byrd

Michael S. Byrd